Civics and civility needed
"Mason school board member Jennifer Miller, who ran on a conservative Christian platform, thinks Christianity should be part of public school education."
This was the lead sentence in an Enquirer story Thursday about how Ms. Miller is upset that Mason High School allowed some Muslim students to sit in a room other than the cafeteria during Ramadan, a month during which Muslims fast from sun up to sun down. She somehow construed not making fasting people sit in a room full of people eating lunch as being an unconstitutional advocacy of one religion over another. (The kids in question reportedly chose to go to the library rather than sit in a room by themselves.)
Miller made such a fuss over the issue at Tuesday's school board meeting -- accusing administrators of lying -- that the meeting was adjourned early. Wednesday she told an Enquirer reporter: "We are a Christian nation, not a Muslim nation."
Actually, we are neither. The United States is a secular nation (for good reason), populated by lots of religious people. All this makes me wonder if what we need to add to the school curriculum is not religion, but more history and civics -- not to mention civility. Refresher courses in such subjects should be required of those seeking elected office.
36 Comments:
Mr. Wells--
I think you have it spot on, but to take it even further, another required class in high school should be Ethics. I took this class in college, and its basically a class where you talk about philosophy and morality and many points of view in an open forum. Getting kids to think about morality is the first step toward getting them to treat each other better and a good way to prepare them for critical thinking and "the real world."
Mrs. Miller's comments are further proof why the division between church and state should be separated, even though nowhere is such a statement officially endorsed on official parchment.
The fact that Mrs. Miller is using Muslims as a wedge issue around election time is sickening, but sadly it is nothing knew to right-winged reactionaries who think they know best for everyone else. Look at the Iraq War for example, Republicans have used Muslims as fodder for their last two elections . . .
This is the exact reason that religion should be left out of the schools...because of people who insist that their religion is more important. The Muslim students have to deal with the fact that the United States considers Christmas to be everyone's holiday. They are forced to take off days of school during a holiday that isn't even theirs. Why are they not making a fuss? I dare to say that even though this is a small dispute, religion has always throughout history caused major wars. This is because religions teach you that theirs is the only one to believe and anyone who doesn't believe in it will be punished, by them or by "God".
A prayer we can all get behind:
"Please (insert your Deity here), save America from the likes of Ms. Miller......"
I would think that with 4 students overdosing on cold medicine and the recent sexual molestation issues that Mason is having right now, Miller would have bigger things to focus on.
To be factual, we are a secular governed nation founded on predominately Judeo-Christian principles and teachings.
Read the Constitutional wording and political papers written during the nation's founding for your facts.
It is a releif that there are people out there who remember the ideals on which this country was founded. I wish more citizens of this country would take the constitution as seriously as they take the late night cable news shows.
at 2:00 PM, October 26, 2006 Anonymous said...
To be factual, we are a secular governed nation founded on predominately Judeo-Christian principles and teachings.
Read the Constitutional wording and political papers written during the nation's founding for your facts.
This writer nailed it. We are secular; founded on Judeo – Christian principles. I looked and I failed to find one mention of Allah in the Constitution, Abraham Lincoln never mentions Vishnu. George Washington while invoking “Divine Providence” probably wasn’t calling upon Buddha. There are those that may have a problem with Ms. Miller’s position but the Judeo-Christian influence has been the most civilizing force the world has ever known. Our legal system is founded on it.
These principles don’t advocate beheading those who are not Christian, it doesn’t advocate subjugating women. It doesn’t call the practitioners of other religions pigs and infidels. It doesn’t have children strap on bombs and walk into a pizza parlors and murder innocents. You out there may have issue with the principles but they are the fine line between chaos (the middle east) and the west. Ms. Miller has every right to be outraged. American kids can’t read a Bible or pray in a school their parents tax dollars pay for but this deranged school system will cater to a religion that advocates the destruction of the west and everything that school is supposed to be teaching?
You’re a pack of morons.
I don't agree with Ms. Miller's attitude, but neither do I think the public schools are obligated to make allowances for Muslims any more than any other religion. If they want to fast during Ramadan, all they need to do is keep their mouths shut, and I mean that literally. No food can get in when the mouth is closed. And no complaints can get out, either. Why do they need a "special room?" That is BOGUS! We need to stop kowtowing to the P.C. police, especially with regard to Islam.
Sorry to read of the foolishness expressed by a number of your first posters.
Ethics should be a course in school? Ethics are based on morality, which is rooted in religion, such as the teaching of the 10 Commandments. But you Liberal Secularists have outlawed even the display of the Ten Commandments in Public Places. What Hypocrites you are.
Muslims and non-Christians are not making a fuss about Xmas? Where have you been since "Merry Xmas" became "Happy Holidays" or "Season Greetings" because schools and retail stores aren't allowed to support Christianity. Schools no longer vacation for the Easter Season but for “spring break”.
If there are tolerant Muslims, please let me know where they live? Iraq? Iran? Saudi Arabia? USA? Where are they? If you know where they live, why don’t we hear from them? Do they promote tolerance and condemn the insanity of Lethal Terrorism as a means for conversation to their supposed tolerant and religious way of life?
Can you be bigger hypocrites and more irrational? Sadly, yes.
Okay, let's see..."secular - founded on Judeo-Christian principles". Since Mrs. Miller proclaims us a Christian nation, let us look at that aspect.
Exactly which teaching of Christ authorizes the kidnapping and enslavement of people from one continent to another for mere economic purpose?
Exactly which teaching of Christ authorizes the forced resettlement of a people so that another people with superior weapons can take over the land without just compensation?
Exactly which teaching of Christ authorizes killing all the people who do not accept forced resettlement and theft of their land without just compensation?
Feel free to respond with book, chapter and verse.
How does one claim to be a follower of Christ, and yet ignore or (worse) contradict the teachings of Christ?
In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson lists as one of the complaints against the Crown a lack of support against the "merciless Indian savages." Yet who among us would not be willing to defend our homes from uninvited invaders who wish to drive us off and take our homes from us?
In this day and age do we consider these actions immoral? And if they are immoral now, why wouldn't they have been immoral then? Is it not the same Bible?
It would seem that, when it comes to applying Judeo-Christian principles, the founders could talk the talk but didn't want to walk the walk. To say that this country was founded on those principles is insulting.
To the subject at hand: In my opinion, if the idea that a couple of kids on a fast who wish not to be in a room with a bunch of other kids eating is too much for Mrs. Miller to stand, then maybe she doesn't have the qualities necessary to be a member of a school board.
bilchuk said...
I always understood that most of our Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians. Anyone more knowledgeable than I care to chime in?
Sorry, there is not enough space to refute your claim that the Founding Fathers were Deists and Atheists. By your statement your mind is probably made up, but you can Google the topic: "Deists and the founding fathers".
"George Washington while invoking “Divine Providence” probably wasn’t calling upon Buddha."
Too bad. A lot of mindless materialism, slavery, racism, warmongering, mysogeny, and bloodshed could have been avoided.
In response to Ms/Mr Anonymous 3:41PM October 26, let me say that there are no teachings of Christ to justify kidnapping & enslavement of people from one continent to another. (I'm assuming Anon is referring to the terrible part of U.S. history in which slavery was tolerated.) That was recognized by our government in the middle of the 19th century, and we have been working to rectify it ever since.
Next question from Anon: "Which teaching of Christ authorizes the forced resettlement of a people so that another people with superior weapons etc." - Answer: none. (I am assuming he/she is referring to the colonization of the U.S., in which Indians were driven from lands that they apparently believed belonged to them, by right of occupation.) Again, that is history - we can't do any more for the people who were wronged than we have already done. And there is sound legal argument to suggest that they didn't "own" any land, in terms of strictly defined boundaries, because that is not how they lived.
Bottom line, there is a lot of crap that goes on that wasn't a result of the "teaching of Christ", and Anonymous knows it. We have made mistakes, and we have tried, as a nation, to rectify those mistakes as best we could. Maybe Anon could do a better job, but I doubt it.
As to the kids on a fast not wanting to be in a room with other kids eating, tough taco. I've had to put up with a lot of stuff that I didn't particularly like in my life, too. That's the way life is. Get used to it.
I personally don’t care about the property room designation particulars regarding Ms. Miller's argument. I am interested in the illogical arguments used by posters in their responses.
Muslims have been fighting their internal religious war (Shiite versus Sunnis) for thousands of years. And they are no closer to resolving their differences. More importantly, their internal war now has engulfed Western Society.
Blacks in America achieved legal equality in the 1960’s and now have practical equality of opportunity too. As a black man you have won your just cause for equality. Why focus on past Slavery injustices to solve today’s problems?
What has the Judeo-Christian foundation of the USA accomplished? We recognized the errors and sins of our past, including the Crusades of the Middle Ages, Slavery, and the Conquest of Native Americans. We realize we are not perfect but based on our Judeo-Christian foundation know the way to correct and hopefully atone for our misdeeds.
We are not trying to spread Christianity by the sword today. We are not beheading unbelievers. We led the fight for slavery abolishment, providing Black’s freedom and equality in America. We have tried to right the wrong done to American Indians. We are fervently fighting our current Catholic Clergy Hierarchy to expunge our religious society of pedophile priests. This internal layman versus clergy fight is painful but necessary. We are cleaning up our own problems. Most importantly, we recognize our past but focus on the betterment of society’s future.
What are you doing? Do you want to focus on the past and try to rewrite history? Or do you want to focus on improving the Future for yourself, family, and your neighbor?
I am amazed at the lack of shame some people must feel in posting their religous hatred and bias.
Unfortunately, this IS Cincinnati - we are a bunch of closet racists and bigots and religous hypocrites.
That Miller board member should been riden out of town on a rail-- this is what Mason has to offer?
To anonymous 3:38...You're crying because you can't post the Ten Commandments but you haven't actually read them...otherwise, you wouldn't have called posters "foolish" and "irrational hypocrites". Wait--who's the hypocrite?
And where have you been? There are many Muslims that are professing that theirs is a peaceful religion and only the extremists promote death as a faction of their beliefs. Don't condemn the masses for the sins of a few. There are extreme Christians as well. Ever heard of the KKK or the Christian Crusades???
For those referring to our nation as Judeo-Christian...read Ms. Miller's quote "WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION". So she is saying you 'Judeos' don't make too much noise either. She also ran on a 'conservative' Christian label and not just a plain old Christian label so those of you refering to Jesus's sayings of tolerance, also don't make too much noise...need we go on.
Anon at 3:38 said this:
"Sorry to read of the foolishness expressed by a number of your first posters.
Ethics should be a course in school? Ethics are based on morality, which is rooted in religion, such as the teaching of the 10 Commandments. But you Liberal Secularists have outlawed even the display of the Ten Commandments in Public Places. What Hypocrites you are."
Spoken like a person who has never taken an ethics class. There are plenty of ethical/moral systems that are areligious. In fact, there are three major systems of ethics: Religious, utilitarianism, and Kantian ethics.
The Ten Commandments are not a system of morals. All we need to do is look at the first commandment to see that they are not a coherent system of ethics: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"? How does that help one behave morally?
Good thing you don't attach your name to your inaccurate posts.
I agree with mrscabes, Mason has enough problems these days with their juvenile sex offenders and drug users. Perhaps they should be the topic of lengthy school board meetings. But let's be clear: Mrs. Miller didn't try to hide her agenda when running for office. The people of Mason knew what they were getting and voted for her anyway. Makes me glad I don't live there.
To Anon 9:57 PM, October 26, 2006.
We don’t condemn the masses for the sins of many. I do not condemn anyone that is God’s domain. But please name 5 Muslim national or world leaders who consistently publicly condemn lethal terrorism? Can you name two?
The worldwide problem of Muslim Terrorism and Extremists Murdering in the name of Islam will only be corrected by Muslims internally addressing each other within Islamic society; and publicly announcing their actions.
2:55 PM, October 26, 2006 solorunner said...
“To be factual, we are a secular governed nation founded on predominately Judeo-Christian principles and teachings.”
Firstly, the issue at hand does not regard which religion is “true” and which isn’t. The Constitution guarantees freedom of ALL religions, not just the one you happen to agree with.
And if the Constitution were founded on Judeo-Christian principles, why is it that the current draft makes no mention of God or Europe’s Christian heritage? Instead, the “values” article states: “The Union is founded on the principles of liberty, democracy, the rule of law, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and for spiritual and moral values. . . .” These values can be found in lots of different religions.
Solorunner went on to write:
“These principles don’t advocate beheading those who are not Christian, it doesn’t advocate subjugating women. It doesn’t call the practitioners of other religions pigs and infidels. It doesn’t have children strap on bombs and walk into a pizza parlors and murder innocents.”
Actually, many evils have been done in the name of the same god you worship. If you study history (which I have a postsecondary degree in), you will find that many people throughout history have been brutally killed all in the name of heresy against the Christian bible. The institution of slavery was justified by verses in the Christian bible. Many Christians today still use Paul’s writings in Ephesians to justify the subordination of women. It all comes down to one person’s interpretation of what the bible says. And just as with Christianity, so too is the Muslim faith subject to varying interpretations by both fanatics and moderates.
On a final note, why is it that Christian kids can have a prayer at the pole event each year yet the same religious tolerance cannot be extended to children of a different faith?
Whatever happened to freedom of religion?
"It's not God I'm afraid of, but the people who think that God is talking to them."
Ferren Balanced utterly missed my point. Mrs. Miller and others throw out the founding of this country as something it wasn't, and it's dishonest to perpetuate that myth.
Second, that same mentality that existed then continues to this day. One can say that circumstances are different now than they were then, but that doesn't wash with me. That attitude smacks of the moral relativism that the "Christian" right loves to club the left with. It is perfectly reasonable to look back to where we were to see if we are on course looking forward.
Once again the old adage holds true: those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.
Replying Anon 12:46 AM Your selective addressing of partial passages is noticed, to suit your argument.
The published Ten Commandments addresses a simple condensed version of moral piety for followers of this Faith. There are commandments for honoring one’s God and commandments for honoring mankind. This blog’s thread overall discussion is about religious tolerance within society.
The obvious trend within the USA is the extreme “politically correct” tolerance for every religion, except for the intolerant deference toward Christianity. If you don’t recognize this long-term trend, we have no basis for a discussion.
Which one of the Ten Commandments do you find offensive, if you are not a believer of this Faith? Which commandment is immoral? Which commandment will harm you? Better yet, won’t followers of honoring mankind’s behavioral commandments help you? Don’t murder. Don’t steal. Don’t covet. Don’t lie. Don’t commit adultery. Honor your mother and father.
Obviously, the Republican Anti-Immigrant wall is being built too far south. It needs to be built around Mason to keep the riff-raff in.
She's a nut and should resign. You are right on in that we're not a Christian nation. What's sad is that she believes this. Gives a little perspective into how close we might actually be to Iran and the like where they truly are a religious state.
I respectfully disagree with your contention that the US is a "secular nation". What the Constitution requires is that (1) government be neutral in its own actions with respect to religion, and (2) government reasonably accomodate religious expression by its citizens. I do agree that there are many liberals who hope that the "living Constitution" will one day be read to authorize promotion by government of secularism and suppression by government of public religious expression, especially in the public schools.
To Anonymous 10:30, 10/27:
If you want to get technical, our own Christian president has declared his own type of terrorism, the terrorism of war. (I'm not against the war, by the way.) His religion says that human life should be respected as well. Does this make him an extremist? Does this put the fault of the war on each and every Christian?
There are many different forms of "terrorism"--poverty, genocide, etc...does our own leader renounce all of these? Is there any leader that would?
Defending oneself by conducting a war against the aggressors is not an act of Terrorism.
Most religions allow one to defend themselves while under attack, even if it means taking another's life.
I also would like to know the names of the Muslim leaders that publicly denounce terrorism after each incident. I would like to Google their names to learn more about them.
Getting back on topic, I wonder if Ms. Miller is in favor of continuing her logic. If the Muslim students can't use a school room, neither should the Christian students use any school rooms for Christmas parties, right? If she persists in her bigoted nonsense, sooner or later a judge will be ruling that no religious observations of any kind will be permitted. Is that what she wants? I doubt it.
Well done, Mr. Wells. It's never ceases to amaze me how individuals like Ms. Miller will invoke "unconstitutional card" when they see something they don't agree with, yet you accurately point out the hypocrisy in this position given her candidacy platform when running for a school board position. I guess the constitution is only useful if it serves one's own political agenda, much like what Bush is currently doing with the Geneva Convention. Ms. Miller's comments reek of intolerance and are yet another example of how religious extremism, in any form, cannot be tolerated.
QUID EST VERITAS?
A Theological Reflection by Charleston C K Wang
During the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, the governor of an obscure Roman province was
presiding over a capital case. The evidence mustered by local religious authorities against the
accused appeared to be weak and unconvincing. This rather mundane case promised to do very
little for the already undistinguished career of the Roman officer. The prisoner had confessed to
having come “into the world, to testify to the truth” and claimed that “everyone on the side of truth
listens to him.” The governor, not thinking too much of the harm done by the accused, blurted out:
“Quid est veritas?”
This episode is taken from the Christian scripture known as the Gospel of John. The governor’s
name was Pontius Pilate and the accused, Jesus. Jesus had confessed of his teaching of spiritual
truth for he had preceded his admission with the statement that his “kingdom is not of this world.”
The reply of Pilate was “What is truth?”
“Quid est veritas?” “What is truth?” Pilate, from all appearances, was a hardened soldier who over
his entire career had risked life and reputation in interminable wars with enemies of the empire. He
was intimately familiar with bandits, brigands and rebels who hated Roman rule. The truth that he
knew is that of the sword, and as a saving grace, the law of the empire. The duty he owed Caesar
was to keep the Roman peace and uphold the Roman law. He has convinced himself that politics
was his second nature. For Pilate and his family, the price of failure was high. Yet, the case before
him was about one man who claimed to be God, and all Pilate could say was “What is truth?”
Was this a rejoinder in sarcasm or an honest confession of vulnerability? Pilate was well
experienced in the political life of the empire. He has seen death in many quarters. But when
Jesus spoke of the kingdom not from this world, Pilate was at a loss. Pilate was an authority on
political truth, but Jesus was speaking of religious truth. Jesus also mentioned that “if my kingdom
were of this world, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest.” Pilate knew that when Jesus was
arrested, his disciples had scattered. The governor saw no political threat in the religious claim of
the prisoner.
To be rid of the case, he could easily impose the death penalty and the temporal powers above him
will not look twice at his decision. But how was he, a representative of the emperor and the executor
of imperial law, a soldier vested with command of sword and lance to judge one solitary man who
made the claim to be God? Deep in his heart, Pilate wished to have nothing to do with this
perplexing case. He thought of washing his hands of it. He knew that his truth was beyond judging
the truth espoused by the accused. To Pilate, the answer was obvious. After he had asked his now
famous question, he went out to the crowd and announced: ‘I find no case against him.”
In my opinion, Jesus spoke for the separation of religious truth from political truth when he
proclaimed to Pilate that “his kingdom is not of this world,” reminding the governor that “if it were, his
servants would fight” for him. According to the Gospels, Jesus had indeed instructed Peter to
sheath his sword drawn against those who had come to arrest him in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Ironical as it may be, Pilate agreed with Jesus with his question, “What is truth?” When Pilate
declared no case against Jesus, he affirmed the fundamental principle that political truth shall be
separate from religious truth, and matters of religion should not be the business of the state. In
rendering this initial judgment, even Pilate could see that matters of faith shall be free from
compulsion by the government. Interestingly today, the separation of Church and State remains a
vital governing constitutional principle of the United States.
To those who say Islam is a violent religion and America is a Christian nation: Are we ready to attribute the over 100,000 people who died in Iraq to Jesus Christ's teachings? If America is a Christian nation, then that means that Christianity is inherently more violent than Islam! Just because we don a uniform when we Christians kill doesn't wash our hands of blood. Remember: terrorism comes both in and out of uniform.
To Anon 1:26 PM, October 28, 2006 If you want to equate Islam with Christianity, rather than the Five or even Two National/Worldwide Islamic figures who consistantly condemn lethal terroristic acts as justice for the spreading of Islam, Can you name just one?
solorunner said...
"There are those that may have a problem with Ms. Miller’s position but the Judeo-Christian influence has been the most civilizing force the world has ever known. Our legal system is founded on it."
Actually, our legal system is based on English Common Law.
The request is not for a prayer room for the remainder of their school year or for the permanent placement of a prayer room. The request is for a place for the kids to go during lunch so they are not sitting there watching other people eat. Let them go to the damned library of help a teacher then.
Would it kill anyone to show an inkling of compassion and maybe do something kind?
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